Preventing Mommy Burnout

* Note this is an automatic transcription, please forgive the errors.

[00:00:13] Welcome everyone to creating a family. Talk about adoption and infertility. Today we’re going to be talking about preventing mommy burnout. You know you’ve likely felt that today we’re going to be talking about it and what you can do about it. I really enjoyed this show. Here’s a sample of what you’re going to hear. We are not just choice overload but also information overload. So we know and everything you can Google anything and everything right. So what does not have red dialing it. Did that have this positive formaldehyde and you know in most things are scary. So you think oh thank goodness we know this. However what it’s doing is creating a fear of a culture of fear. This show is brought to you by creating a family. We are the national adoption and infertility education and support nonprofits. We have a new guide or site actually new. We have a guide on adoption announcements. It is cute fun full of pictures. Check it out on our website. Creating a family. Dot org. You can hover over resources and you will see the guide there and you can click on it and download it at that point. Creating a family radio show is underwritten by the jockey Family Foundation. Their mission is to strengthen adoptive families through post adoption services as their founder Deborah Waller who is the chairman and CEO of jocky International says one failed adoption is one too many. You can support their mission by buying a bear or a blanket at their newly revised website jocky being family dot com and we thank them for their support.

 

[00:01:57] Today we’re going to be talking about preventing mommy burnout. Our guest is Dr. Cheryl Ziegler. She is a psychotherapist and author of a new book Mommy burnout how to reclaim your life and raise healthier children in the process. Welcome Dr. Ziegler to creating a family. Thanks so much for having me. I am so looking forward to this interview. I really enjoyed the book and it rang true to me on both a personal level but it also rang true because one of the things we do at creating a family is we have a really large online support group for people who have either adopted or fostering children or people who have who are currently or have struggled with infertility. And I see so much of the of this book really dealt with the issues that I see daily as one of the moderators in our Facebook support group. It really did hit home. So I wanted to start though as I was reading the book. And I should say I’m also a parent and also understand intuitively as well as from personal experience the whole concept of mommy burnout. Now my kids are getting older so I’m in a different stage. And so in some ways I have a little perspective on it in some ways I don’t. So I think that’s just how it is. How is parenting and this decade of the 21st century different from parenting say 20 or 30 years ago and how does that relate. Well I love that. Yeah I love that you start with that question because that’s almost the question that I started with myself. What.

 

[00:03:48] You know I have a private practice. And I was seeing this pattern really day after day after day of women sort of saying the same things I’m so exhausted. I’m so over this when you know it is like you know those kinds of questions. And so I want to understand did other generations feel this way. You know what’s different. What’s unique so history of parenthood Parenthood you know they are different right. Yeah exactly. I really really wanted to understand and so some of the things that I have found that helped me understand how we have gotten to where we are are a couple of things. The first one is certainly generations of moms before us felt stress. There’s no doubt about it. Burnout is really chronic stress. And so they felt it. However they dealt with it talked about it and lived with it quite differently. So in the late 50s early 60s when people would talk about Mommy’s Little Helper Mommy’s Little Helper the little yellow pill was actually Valium and so that’s how they were dealing with it they would not talk about that would that would not have been you know something suicidally in America that people would have talked about but they would go to their doctors. And unfortunately at the time the majority of the view would have been to say well you’re hysterical here take a pill and basically calm down you know. So that was their generation then the Equal Rights Movement came. And so all of these women’s rights came about. And interestingly what the data shows is that men have benefited more from the equal rights movement than women have.

 

[00:05:30] Because what happened at that period of time right. Ironically right. Then we said well now I can just do it all. I’m not going to give anything up so I’m going to cook and clean and raise kids and I’m going to go you know work at some company become a CEO whatever I want to do go back to school maybe because at the time you weren’t women weren’t even allowed to go to absolutely any university they wanted. They were still even some they couldn’t. So it’s it’s it’s been an interesting evolution and historically to look to see and they started talking about burnout and motherhood really in the 90s mid to late 90s is when it started to come about. I think like women were finally realizing this is so hard. And actually we can’t have it all. And this notion that we thought we were going to have it all is in isn’t reality. And so one of the very unique things that brings us to. You know right now that in 20 18 is social media. And that is one of the very very unique qualities of what is really fueling a level of stress to the point where you know we started off with bloggers blogging about like jokes and crying in closets and hiding from kids and pantries and. No no no no. And we’re blogging about the perfect meal. They were fixing their family every night. And while my family were writing leftovers Yep that’s exactly. I mean it started off like that like Pinterest and there are still plenty of that these Pinterest perfect kind of images.

 

[00:07:02] And then it became like the joke about the trials and tribulations of motherhood. And now I think we are open and ready to really talk about like where I really come from and this is this is an actual mental and physical health crisis for women. It’s not funny. Right. And it’s not something that benefits us if we don’t talk about it. So it’s just been it’s just like this whole evolution of what’s been happening but social media in particular does it portrays images of oftentimes perfection. And if not perfection at the very least what you don’t have you know you don’t have the kid who’s the star of the soccer team or you don’t have the kid who’s amazing at this or that or this vacation or this car. Your husband doesn’t make enough money whatever it is. So those kinds of things you know people people are concerned about and they should be about teenagers and social media and I’m also concerned though about moms and social media and women’s health and social media and what it’s doing to us. Yes because people don’t they don’t post that they’re hiding in the bathroom with the door shut you know pretending to go to the bathroom so that they don’t have to listen to their kids or don’t have to play another round of Candy Land or whatever. You know they’re not roasting that you know what they post that night.

 

[00:08:30] It’s a picture of their perfectly set table and oftentimes that’s what really drives me crazy is the kids are just sitting there like little angels smiling and at the table as opposed to having a face that says I don’t like this or you know why couldn’t I have a brother or whatever. So yeah that everybody’s in that I guess human nature that we always want to put our best foot forward but now we have access to it. One of the things that you talked about that you really stress actually throughout the book and I found it fascinating and interesting and something quite frankly that I wouldn’t necessarily have thought that you would have put such emphasis on and that is the importance of friends. And you make a statement in the books that moms now have fewer close and intimate friendships than in the past and that that I wonder if social media plays into that but why. Why do we. That surprised me. Why do we as women have fewer close intimate friendships now. Well I’m so glad you bring that up because I actually go so far in the book is to say I believe my practice would be cut in half if every woman had a close intimate friend. And I think that’s a pretty bold statement. And that has been my thought for years. Women are more socially isolated in general Americans are more are more socially isolated than ever although we are more digitally connected than ever. And so one of the things that’s going on is there’s so many. Again I’d love to look at history and how did we get here. But suburbia sort of started it really a long time ago people used to live in a lot more you know urban areas and then suburbia came in and when suburbia came came fences came more distancing came a lot more driving.

 

[00:10:27] So the socialization and all of that just you know it was it was something that was actually quite noted right. But where we and then fast forward to today. We are just not befriending people the way we used to. We don’t look up from our phones very often. There’s like a minute of quiet time or you’re standing on the line in a grocery store or you’re at the airport waiting for security what’s everybody doing. Right. Everybody has their phone out and everybody is scrolling through social media. And we are also because of our opportunities with education and employment. Women are moving around a lot more. So it’s not as likely that you know you grew up in Ohio and you went to school in Ohio and now you go back to your hometown or at least your home county and get married raise kids. That’s not as common. What’s more common is that you go to school in one state and then you get a job opportunity in another one and then you meet your husband and together you might move to a city or you know even spend two years traveling outside of the country. So the mere fact that people are moving around is also contributing to more loneliness a lot of women will say to me first of all the title of the chapters I didn’t I used to have friends like most women will be like oh there was a time where I was really social and I had a lot of fun and I had a lot of friends. And you know we are getting more isolated and we think that social media is replacing or at the very least like a really good bandaid for this.

 

[00:11:58] But really it isn’t. And what happens is you know never mind you know like Facebook let’s just say texting going to read them right. Right. It’s so easy it’s convenient. I love it. And in some ways it’s great because I can let somebody know I’m thinking about them. You know in a heartbeat and not have to disrupt my life or anything without however time taking my busy schedule to have to and I can’t control the phone conversation with the I’m in control of how much time I spend. Yeah. Yes. And you know what’s so interesting though is let’s say you and I are friends and you know I’m in the middle of a huge argument with my husband. And you call if I pick up the phone and I’m like hi you’re going to know like you’re spot on. Are you OK. And I’m going to have to actually be more authentic and answer you and talk to you. But if I’m in the middle of a huge argument or I just got fired something pretty big just happened. I’m sitting here I’m crying and you text me thinking of you how’s it going what can I do. I can so easily reply with an emoji even without even words. I can just smiley face it can send you a heart. I can say everything’s great. How are you and I risk. I don’t risk that emotional vulnerability. And so now with this invention really of technology we are spending less time face to face which is the ideal.

 

[00:13:22] People ask me Well do you think that technology at the very least though it connects people and so does it help. And you know for the most part it it it’s like a bandaid. So it does help when you’re missing someone across the country the fact that you can text them or see pictures of their kids every day is great but it doesn’t replace the actual emotional needs that human beings have. And that is to be in proximity with others that make you feel good and that is to be giving eye contact and hugs and touching hormonally they say oxytocin the love hormone gets stimulated in the presence of another woman who you’re positively engaged with. You can’t get that even on the phone and you certainly cannot get that through technology. So you’re right. When people say well what’s the one takeaway you just had to say what can I say there’s so many. But if you decide to say one I say through the research and my own experience the number one thing that women can do is befriend their friends connect with old ones make new ones start talking to neighbors because we need also different levels of friendship. It’s not all about go get your go go find the best friend. It’s not that at all. It’s you can be friendly with the 70 year old woman across the street because you know what you’re going to learn something from her. You might need something from her she might need something from you that makes you feel useful and helpful only to like in my case. I still have a preschooler so I’m I’m raising my child my youngest child next to women who are literally 10 and 12 years younger than me.

 

[00:14:57] Right. But we can still really don’t look at them as well. I mean I’m 10 12 years older than them I’m not going even befriend them. I’ve really learned to maybe I used to be a little bit more like that honestly like I would look for people who I really thought I would hit it off with that I had a lot in common with. And I don’t do that anymore. There’s so much value in all different types of female friendships. Yeah. I’m so glad you said I mean we don’t all all of our friendships don’t have to be the kindred spirits. And it goes and of Green Gables. You know I call them friendships of convenience. And that makes it sound. It makes it sound shallow and maybe in some way it is. But when especially when my children were very little people next door who had a similar age child. This woman and I would have had almost nothing in common other than the fact that we were both moms of similarly aged kids which many have a lot in common. You know. And truthfully the friendship hasn’t necessarily been something that once we moved away it wasn’t a friendship that continued but it was wonderful. During that time and it fulfilled the need even though again she wasn’t she wasn’t my bosom buddy or whatever so I was I’m glad you that to talk about the different levels of friendship. You know the person that you see at the gym who happens to be going at the same time because that’s when the gym has child care.

 

[00:16:26] Is somebody that you can correspond with and have something in common with just because you both work out and you both have kids right. Well I mean even on that note she might be the person that the only thing you have in common is you’ve decided you’re going to be accountability partners. You know you say I expect to see you here every Monday and Wednesday and I’m going to send you a text even. I’m going to call you and make sure you meet me here. How invaluable would that be. Very it would be very valuable. Very blunt right. Yes. Let’s talk a little about the. Stay at home mom vs. working moms. From my vantage point of running this really large support group there seems to me people say well there’s no longer the mommy wars. But I still see it. And both sides think that they are the more stressed out. So let’s talk a little about. You want to solve that you want to tell us which one is the most stra the most of a group of moms or stay at home moms. And you would maybe think it was the other way but stress doesn’t you know when we say stress that’s subjective. Right. So I guess what I see. Here’s what I see. I don’t I don’t think that we have a ton not in common. We have more in common meaning stay at home moms working moms have more in common in terms of feelings core fundamental feelings then they have dissimilar feelings. And so here’s what I mean stay at home mom.

 

[00:17:57] She says this is this is an average sort of session for me. She’ll say well you know I’ve got two kids and I stay at home now. But you know I just want to let you know you know I have an MBA and I used to run my own company or I used to be the head of a division at this company and I had a career for 10 years before I ever started kids or before I decide to stay home. And so you know women pushing pushing the age back in which they have children has contributed to this because they have longer life they have life stories. They have a whole usually truly like a decade of experience of traveling or working of being educated in which all of a sudden when they become a stay at home mom they’re like whoa Where’s the girl who you know backpacked across Europe and ran the H.R. department at this company you know so oftentimes in my experience there’s that. And so they question what they are contributing to the world and they question their purpose. What is this for. What am I doing. You know how is doing laundry and dishes and cooking and cleaning. How is that productive in the world. And so those are the kinds of questions. Let me throw out a wealth that I hear from people you know that are staying at home which is this is not a jab at that either either decision. Both have value. But whether or not the home or the and parent but moms will say my only job is these kids. And you know that. So I’ve got to treat it as a job.

 

[00:19:30] I’ve got to I’ve got to do the best thing I can possibly best job I can possibly do because this is my measurement now of what I’m doing and measurement of who I am. And I think the notion of motherhood as a job I find of course because I read and want to hear so much about people’s thoughts about motherhood is kind of controversial. There’s definitely a camp of moms that are like yeah this is a job and then there’s another camp of moms that are like we shouldn’t view it that way. And I mean I think that there is a personal choice there. I sort of professionally and personally I do think it’s like a job. And quite frankly I think that the women who approach it like a job and I don’t mean going to the extreme where they’re their ultimate goals. Actual perfectionism. But women who really approach it because if you approach it as a job it gives it a purpose like a really big purpose. Right because when your kids your 2 and 3 you’re just really getting through the day you know and sometimes you’re staring at your watch like when is it when it’s naptime and when it’s bedtime and you know and so you’ve got to think of it in the bigger picture that you are not just contributing to your community but you’re contributing to the world by raising loving emotionally intelligent human beings that care you know. And that’s the way I talk to stay at home moms about it is think of this as the world’s most important job. People say it. But let’s let’s walk our talk.

 

[00:21:01] We say being a parent is the most important job and the hardest job that anybody could ever have will treat it as such. Really treat yourself like you’re a hero that day because you taught your kid whether they’re a toddler or a high school kid you taught them to be kind. You taught them to be accepting of everyone and celebrate diversity. So when I talk to stay at home moms that’s how I talk to them the way I would talk to somebody if I was coaching them through an employee situation and a doctors say they can interrupt here a it isn’t doesn’t that however lead to us or the temptation to judge our value or our success at our job by how our children are behave behave because I can spend a lot of time teaching my children to be kind and then my kid acts unkind and does something bad or my kid is find out that my kid has bullied another child. So isn’t that idea that this is what this is our job. Does that not contribute to them valuing of ourselves based on how our children behave. I absolutely think it can run that risk. And I think if a mom if any of us let’s say we had employees. If any of us think that we are going to fully control somebody else whether you are their mother or you or their boss we really need to rethink that and we need to understand that what we are doing are raising children instilling values holding them accountable and doing it a thousand or 100000 times so that hopefully their brain is wired to act and behave and feel certain ways.

 

[00:22:42] But at the end of the day and especially if we are talking about parents who are raising children who are adopted which is an area of expertise that I’ve had for a long time there are so many other factors that the idea that you are doing your best and that you knew you were consistent and you did your best and you supported it in every way has got to be good enough. That’s what we’re measuring. Did I do my best. Not did my kid do their best. Did I do my best today if my kid becomes a bully or my kid is not kind to somebody. Sure I mean evaluate what you know did I. Did I miss something did I. You know and then when I can look at myself in the eye or look at anybody in the eye and say you know I taught him differently or I taught them better. That’s what we’re measuring. Did I tell my kids they did not do they perform were human right. My kid in the human eggs and I did not hear him. Yeah I I’m not responsible. Yeah. And then we do the best and we also have to model to our children that they can make mistakes and we can make mistakes and we can get over them. You raised the really.

 

[00:23:48] Well let me before we go off on the we’ve been talking only stay at home so let me just circle back working and talk some about working moms because I think that there is some feeling that they then have to make up for the fact when they come home they have to make up for the fact they’ve been gone during the working hours of the day and that a lot of stress. Absolutely. So the working moms that I work with when they are in either you know high levels of stress or they’ve got to the point of burnout. What we’re talking about is they’re saying I am busting my butt at home I’m busting my butt at work and I am putting in you know more hours I broccoli I hardly ever sleep and you know running around all over the place all the time I’m late for everything. You know I’m sneaking out. I’m trying to you know all those things and they’ll say they’ll look at me and I’ll just say for what. Why am I doing this to myself. And then that’s what we explore. OK let’s talk about this. Why are you doing this yourself. What do you get out of work. You know maybe literally you need to work it’s so you can still feel this way though. So people will say to me well is that just you know privileged to think about whether work or not. And the feelings are the same. So let’s just say like working is not an option. Absolutely. You are the breadwinner of your family or you are a single parent. So working you know full time is is the only option for you. You are feel entitled though to have the thoughts and feelings of what am I doing this for. You know like women will come to that when they’re working and they go you know that pretty much 75 to 80 percent my paycheck just goes to child care.

 

[00:25:31] You know why am I doing this. Why am I doing this to myself. And then there are times where they go Hey I make some life adjustments. You know I can stay home or I can’t work part time or whatever it might be. So that’s the question they ask. What is this for. And then the guilt. I mean I think every mom deals with guilt but I find that working moms have even higher levels of guilt. And that is something that guilts will never ever get us to a point of wildness. Guilt doesn’t serve us. It really really doesn’t. No. And yeah I can certainly I can see your amen. You are you really do. Yeah. Yeah I I I can tell and I do as well. You’re listening to an interview on creating a family with the author of Mommy burnout. Dr. Cheryl Ziegler I wanted to talk some about perfectionism. You talk about it you mentioned it just a minute ago. It’s almost and use the term the proliferation of choice and we certainly have and I am I am so guilty of this. I mean I’m I’m getting ready to buy a microwave and I sit there standing in the aisle Googling you know all the reviews of microwaves and then you know can’t find the one that’s been ranked number one by whomever. And I can’t find it. So then I’m going to three different stores looking for this.

 

[00:27:05] And then you know that type of thing I’m finding the best product but it goes beyond that from a parenting standpoint you know finding the what is the best Carsey what is the best gymnastics program what’s the best kindergarten for gracious sex. And so it becomes that becomes a job and of itself it becomes overwhelming with all the options that we currently have and all the all the options for things to do our kids can be in gymnastics or dance or tennis or script or let’s make it and then if they can do all of these and if if we don’t have our kids and all these activities it’s the old foamer you know fear of missing out. Our kids are going to be screwing our kids around because we haven’t provided the optimum you know how do we know maybe my kids this kid would be a piano virtuoso if you know if we could just figure out a time to get her into piano lessons Absolutely. I came across the first time. You know like you kind of feel it sometimes it’s like a funny joke. Think about how big you know babies are. Bye bye baby like just how huge the stores are right. So I feel like you know when you’ve become a first time parent yes you acknowledge. Look at all these options there are but you’re excited. You’re just like you know exciting certainly. And especially if you know you’ve been trying for a long time and you finally reached that point and so it’s just everything is exciting. However that last for a very short amount of time and you get in there and you go oh my gosh. Well I mean I don’t know. Like what should I get should I get natual here. I paid double for Ganic should I be right.

 

[00:28:44] Then you’ve got all the tragedy. Yes. So that’s why I like everybody else just sort of realize that you feel overwhelmed and then you know all those things happen. And then what happened was I saw a ted talk about the paradox of choice. And I watched it and I was just you know really intreat like this was so interesting because it was data and it was research on how the more choices we have the more stress we experience. And it was a kind of an older Ted Talk. And so then I just started researching that and I said we have to have this in the book because this is our society today. And then when I was interviewing or talking with different publishing houses and I’d have a whole team around asking me lots of questions. Oh my gosh these women would be like oh I was just up really late last night. I couldn’t pick my toddler’s pillow and she’d organic. And what about the materials. And you know so it’s like it again in some ways it’s like we are not just choice overload but we’re also an information overload so we don’t know. And everything you can Google anything and everything right. So what does that have red dialing it. Did that have positive formaldehyde. You know when most things are scary so you think Oh well thank goodness we know this. However what it’s doing is creating a fear of a culture of fear.

 

[00:30:07] And so we you know fear gets translated into distress gets translated into not being able to make decisions and being decisive and that is what’s happening and like you said it’s from the microwave to the mattress to schools. You know I have. If you remember that part I have in the book you know school choice process and I kind of go through my training process because where we are you have school choice and I go and I looked it up. And at the time when I was writing as you know it was like in a forty four square mile radius I mean there are 350 52 schools to choose from. I mean you know and they all have their specialty. And I think that on the outside that looks like well such a privilege right and so amazing like I could say in my school my kid to a school that has a farm or is green or has a STEM lab. But it’s stressful. And at the end of the day it also breaks up our communities here. So there it is yeah I know. And ultimately and again from the perspective of someone whose children are older and then moving out into the world ultimately all these choices that we spent forever trying to make really aren’t the most important. They’re not the most. Our kids don’t need all of this and whether or not they go to school with the farm or the STEM program or they go to the neighborhood school we’re their next door neighbor goes you know. It isn’t life altering but it’s hard to think that in the moment one of the things you have to be honest I haven’t done this exercise but I’m going to. And it is to force yourself to choose from only three options for any decision that comes up this week.

 

[00:31:51] I’ve written that down on a sticky pet and I have that taped to my bathroom mirror at home. I’m going to try to do that because I certainly I love to research and I get that I get totally caught up in it. And so I thought that was a it will be a challenge but I think it will be a good challenge for me and the a couple of other things you say for at the end of each chapter you have a prescription plan for it in the chapter talking about choice and and the parole violation of choice or getting the best perfectionism or whatever. You talk about limiting your options for only living your children’s choices and your own for only down to only two to three options and shift from your mindset from the best which is what captures me to what works what works well for my family and get away from the idea that I need the best pillow for my kid or a mattress the best mattress you know that type of thing. Yes that’s what I really wanted to make we emphasize that one piece and that always gets moms when I’m when I’m out and doing talks and you know doing this kind of this part of the talk with women I say. And in fact this isn’t just preaching or opinion. In fact the research shows that giving our kids the very best and preventing them from having adversities in their life does not set them up for future success. They have to experience adversity. They cannot have the very very best of everything. Or you get some outcomes that aren’t favorable.

 

[00:33:39] And we have not just really with women’s health crisis we have an actual mental health crisis with our teenagers right now. And number one being anxiety and one of the things that I of course curious about is what is will what’s missing what’s missing from teens and young adults. You know I don’t know if you recently saw it two weeks ago there was a study that came out actually done I think by CIGNA that said holy cow the young adults ages 19 to 22 are actually lonelier than the geriatric population. And you know they’ve got one in five has an anxiety disorder these things. So I wanted to know. Right. What is causing this problem. And the number one thing that we’re looking at that that they are missing are coping skills. Yes it does and it makes sense. We have a generation that’s sort of somehow gotten these messages like We need to have the best that they need to go to coding camp this summer and they need to do this and they have to have a lab and they bubble up. And what’s so interesting is I think what we are forgetting is that through failure through adversity through hard times is how you build build character grit relationships confidence problem solving skills. I could go on and on. And so certainly that’s one factor if anything if anybody got something from this conversation besides women connecting with friendships when it comes to raising your kids is make sure first and foremost you take an assessment of what are your own coping skills.

 

[00:35:17] What do you model as coping skills and what are you teaching your kids and how much are you letting them fail or have adversity in their life so that they can build that up. So the age range you’re talking about now is the age range. My kids are them and so I I so totally see this and appreciate this. And partly I think technology is. So many parents now parents of my friends who have children the same age are who are children are going to college are bragging oh you know we continue to talk three times a day oh yeah we talk all the time. And I think that can be good. I mean that cannot be good for a child in college to not be able to make decisions and unfairness and the children may be making decisions. But I sense that they’re not that are still having their parents involved with the minutiae of decision making that we we want our children to be able to fly the nest and be able to do so I don’t know if technology from your research have you seen that technology is part of that or is it just the right guys and everything that we’re reading that makes us feel this way that we have to be connected every scenario. I mean I don’t know how people feel. I feel bad. But technology certainly plays a role in this. Just think about it if in so many different levels. But you know you have a problem. You have a question. What do you do. What do you think this generation does. Do they go and talk to somebody. Talk to a guidance counselor or talk to a trusted adult. Maybe a friend you know.

 

[00:36:59] What do you imagine is their first go to thing. Google it Google it is Google and buddy my family on that one. But you know but you’re right. You’re still developing right your brain is already developed. Oh trust me I’ll pass. Yeah maybe right off your brain develops. Right. So if you have a developing brain that is whatever 16 19 years old and you’ve got a question you’re going to go to technology right. You’re going to. So now you’re in college and you know you got your first test back and it’s early and maybe these kids never even had a c before ever. Why. Because they get a lot of help right there. Right. But maybe they got a lot of help and support. They’re calling I mean there’s books on this. They’re calling home talking to their or whatever texting home talking to their parents about it and then their parents are calling professors. You know one of the books that I’m reading right now that I’m just telling everybody about it’s not new but I just happened to read it. This year is how to raise an adult. And I love books. I love that book right. And so you know and I think it’s from a couple of years ago. She was one of the people that really exposed being a freshman dean at Stanford to say I never even ever meet parents. Why would a freshman Dean meet parents. Right. And now they’re on campus. They’re calling me emailing me those kinds of things so on so many levels. I never I never I really don’t ever.

 

[00:38:40] Mom shame anybody. I’m not saying this is a joke or criticism. All of this comes from what we believe is love but really it’s fear because you fear that if you don’t do this your child will be left behind because everybody else has these advantages. So even if intuitively you don’t feel that great about doing it you do it because you’re like I’m not going to let my kid not have an advantage. That’s one part of it. But for the reason why I’m so passionate about all these topics and I really wrote this book is because for what my ultimate goal what’s my endgame with this is not just to have written a book and have people you know maybe get a couple tips or whatever is to really have a movement really change the way this generation some Generation X and lots of Millennial parents to change the way in which they are going to parent and which they are going to raise adults because it is having a very significant effect on everything on our mental health on our physical health on our coping skills on suicide rates. If we look over the last decade a 70 percent increase in suicide rates between for kids between the ages of 10 and 14. A 10 year older in the demographics. This is really serious stuff. We need to teach kids how to deal with problems how to deal with feelings and they’re not going to get that on line. They’re only going to get that through relationship and sometimes they’re going to get this from US backing up and letting them figure it out.

 

[00:40:13] There’s a fine line there because we certainly don’t want to. If a child is struggling to withdrawal from them but we can’t always. And again we’re speaking of children as. As I said mine are flying the coop now but we can’t always be the one who solve their problems. We need to be perhaps a trusted adviser. If we’re lucky but we’ve got to allow them to step forward. I wanted to raise a it’s something I think about a lot and I haven’t seen the research on it but it’s something I and I see or I think I say perhaps that it’s not universal. It feels like now that families and I don’t have the right words for it but it feels to me like this next generation of fat people who are parenting children from no one to 16 now are very child and or the families are very child centered. The parents are jumping through hoops. Everything revolves around the children. The children’s schedule for children’s needs. And I feel it sounds so so counterintuitive it sounds almost selfish it sounds like but I wonder if it’s not that it’s that it seems that a balance that there should be some parents centered most in the family as well and I somehow intuitively I just think it’s better for children to know that they’re there in an orbit that the center is the parent. And this has led to a certain amount of security perhaps not. I’d love to hear your thoughts on it. Absolutely on so many levels.

 

[00:41:50] Let me let me intro this by saying like wrapping up that last part that part you don’t have to disengage from your child to let them experience adversity and problem solve. Maybe your role just like you said but I’ll reiterate it your role is to say wow gosh you’ve got a problem. You know the way I see it is here you know here the two choices I think you have are here’s you know two ways that I think you could solve it so you can still be engaged but just not rescuing and saving. OK. So I just want to make sure I really emphasize that point. I think in terms of a child centered world or society right now that we live in the United States. That’s absolutely what’s going on and the notion that mother or father are on the top and that children are second is something that’s very old very tried and true. And it is one of those things that’s been around for a while that I think is the right way. This is not one of those like let’s get modern and put kids first. There’s nothing good about a child with a 6 year old child feeling more powerful than their 30 year old mom. There’s nothing good that’s going to come out of that. They need to know they do need to know their place. They need to know who makes the ultimate decision because at the end of the day it provides safety for them physical and emotional safety for them. Exactly right.

 

[00:43:13] That is sometimes what happens is this is an interesting trend I see is we think that as parents whatever our parents generation or grandparents did two generations ago before is outdated and certainly there’s always going to be some truth to that there’s stuff that we thought last year that might be outdated. So in that arena we have learned that heart or an improvement. I’m not. I don’t think you are regulating that we should throw out all the science and stuff that we’re learning. Exactly. But there are also some things that aren’t I don’t think there really are philosophical or even so subjective. Child development focused a child. And for me definition of child meaning someone who you are in charge of so I think up until the 80s up until 18 years on I’m talking about the adolescents as well. They need to understand that their parent or parents that are raising them are ultimately making the decisions are ultimately in charge. They have to trust that whatever decisions are making are in the best interests financially emotionally whatever that might be they need to understand that otherwise there’s sort of risk taking and having too much control and areas that ultimately makes them feel like they know they shouldn’t have this much power. So it makes them feel insecure. So attachment is an area and when any time of course you work with foster adopt kids you need to understand Trauma and Attachment. And so from an attachment perspective if you want to build a secure attachment your child needs to know that ultimately you make the decisions. Now you can certainly and I don’t think you need to justify them. I see it to me because I see all the time.

 

[00:45:00] I think there’s a fine line between justifying decisions that you make to your kids versus explaining them and then there are certain times where you’re going to do neither and you’re going to say because this is this is the way it is like the good old days that are sometimes I just don’t know. Yeah ok. I am a dictator and on a good day I’m a benevolent one. But you know what. That’s just how it is. OK. I don’t get. I was going to a dad right. I don’t need to justify it to you or explain it in this particular you know and and so and it’s a ratio. And I think that you know what’s so hard of course about parenting is there’s there’s so much gray and there’s so much ability to one day. How come I said yes and then the next day why did I say no. I mean there are so many reasons that a child doesn’t need to know. I mean really the reason could be because I’m just tired or I have that extra cold last night because I just didn’t I was stressed and I didn’t feel like listening to a tantrum and I you know I didn’t have to deal with you yesterday but today I do you know and we didn’t know what that means. But so we can listen but we’re not sometimes right. And I think and I think that people need that. Of course if I were teaching a parenting class right now if I said What are the pillars of like a healthy parent child relationship. I would absolutely say consistency. However consistency doesn’t mean that you do the same thing every time there’s not the consistency right is that you maybe the quality is fairness. Right.

 

[00:46:29] And so again you know sometimes my mom explained things to me. Sometimes she negotiates with me right and she just says no. But I trust that consistency is trust. I trust that she’s making the right decisions for us and I move on. That is the goal. You tackled something in your book that I found interesting and that I have all seen and in fact had written an article on this awhile back and that’s called sleeping in one of the things that I don’t really have a opinion on Coach sleeping. But I did a lot of interviews of families who coach slept and what I found out to this and again this is not a scientific survey but it was based on a fair number of interviews. And what I found out was that sleeping in most cases meant that the mom was sleeping with the kids and the dad was sleeping somewhere else. And I don’t know if you actually said that in the book but you talked about sleeping and when you brought it up I was going boy she’s getting brave. Because let me tell you you could start a massive online war by introducing or questioning code sleeping. And my point was not necessarily to question it so much as to out it and saying OK are we. What are we really talking about. Let’s talk briefly. I know this could be a show in and of itself but it could be another hour long interview. But let’s talk about what you see with coastie thing and let me ask you you also have you also seen through your practice and through your research that coach sleeping as often mom with kids and dad elsewhere.

 

[00:48:08] So yes it’s so funny that like what we’re about to talk about in this context has this sort of formal title because the reason why it’s in my book is because I think it’s I think I put it this way it’s mommy’s dirty little secret and the dirty secret is not intentional sleeping. The dirty little secret is that my kids will not sleep independent of me. So guess what. I sleep on therefore I sleep in their twin bed. They come into our bed every single night. I have one kid who slept in a dog bed on the floor next to the mom. I mean this is what this is really what I’m talking about is more of it’s not intentional mostly being it’s my kid for whatever reason. They have nightmares. They are insecure or whatever the reason is. The secret is you cannot imagine how many and I’m not talking about babies certainly not talking about babies and I’m really not talking about toddlers. I’m talking about children. I’m talking about school age children kindergarten above. You cannot not imagine how many of them will not. They’re sort of like they hijack. That’s what it feels like to the parent they hijack their parent and like you know you can’t you have to come back. I mean I have full I can have a full caseload of kids just in this situation and I’m really not kidding you. Who the parents call and say I can’t do this anymore. I mean I am so tired. I’ve got a 9 year old that won’t let me leave the room at night.

 

[00:49:36] And if I do they will scream bloody murder. They’ll run out sometimes they’ll physically pull my shirt and pull me back in. And so it’s common enough that I that I bring it up. So that’s what I why the sort of coast bleeping flash child hijacking sleeping situation is in the book because it’s not common. Yeah I believe that. I absolutely believe that. And we’re children up to nine and 10 are still having their parents physically sleep in the bed with them physically and cut into their bed. And they’re holding your hand as far as what does that lead to and from what what happens is it’s really an issue. Mean it will eventually lead to a parent’s getting burned out. It really will. And they’ll tell me that you know basically after dinner around 7:00 at night they’re like I physically get tense my shoulders get tense I start thinking about what nighttime is going to be like tonight. And am I going to do the battle because what the thing about this problem is that if you simply say to your child fine go ahead and go sleep in my bed or find I’ll lay down with you and I’ll stay here until you fall asleep but what happens is they’re so tired they fall asleep and then they wake up at midnight or 1:00 in the morning and have to get back to their bed. What happens is it has a huge trickle down effect.

 

[00:50:55] It affects actually their sleep rates or their quality of sleep which is so important and affects their marital relationship or their relationship with their partner in terms of intimacy and sexual assault either but yet not exactly what’s going to come out about not just sexual intimacy just a sort of intimacy. Yeah you know you’re actually right though it’s just cuddling or talking just talking talking all day. You know you’re laying in bed or laying on the couch and you know maybe watching your show together or whatever it is you know adults like to do to wind down when their kids are finally in bed and sleeping which is getting later and later these days you know it it really interferes with that. It certainly can interfere with working moms schedule when she’s like you know basically is like my third or fourth shift of the day and I return e-mails for an hour or so at night. And when I fall asleep with my kid and I wake up groggy and my contacts are still in and you haven’t brushed my teeth so my clothes whatever it might be disruptive you know and the kids when they’re in this mode. They honestly don’t care. It is all about them. Their fear what they’re working through. So you know this is one of those times where it goes back to even what we were talking about where parents have to decide. Everybody every parent has to pick and choose their battles by the time they see me. They approached it with you know hey it’s not that bad. I just lay with them until they fall asleep and you know it’s been an evolution by the time of course they’re coming to me they’re ready for change. They’ve had it.

 

[00:52:27] Sometimes the kids are ready for change but for the most part they’re so scared and they can’t regulate themselves enough to fall asleep and stay asleep in their own room that they see what it’s doing to their parents. But they it’s not motivating enough you know their needs are more motivating. So it’s a pretty big problem and so that’s why I write about it and I still think this is one of I think this is a secret. I don’t think this is something you really that parents are going to go Yanmei 9 and 10 year olds blah blah blah. Every single day. It’s just because they’re also being protective of their own child. It looks like weakness on their part you know or something that’s not desirable. No I hear you one of the interesting things although not interesting from my I mean not not surprising I mean from from my standpoint the number of examples that you gave in the book of of moms who were suffering from burnout who had faced infertility. And you talk you also struggled with infertility. Right. And that was an interesting thing and I I quite frankly I didn’t expect it. I mean I wasn’t. Didn’t necessarily think that that that the infertility would moms who had experienced infertility would have a higher rate of burnout. And I’m not sure you said that they had a higher rate but they they certainly played heavy in the examples and then I think made sense to me and I wonder is it because moms who have experienced infertility have usually had to work so very hard to get their kids through either successful treatment or through adoption.

 

[00:54:10] And they have built up this idea of what motherhood is going to be and quite frankly you know a lot of motherhood is is a combination of boring and anxiety making you know and it’s wonderful. But it’s not exactly. You know it’s not all you know fireworks. In fact if it’s fireworks it’s usually a tantrum. So that’s a reason or do you see it more often. How does infertility or the struggle to become a mom impact the the the likelihood or the prevalence of of being burnt out. Well it’s such a unique factor in motherhood. And I think that it starts off your journey in a really different place than the you know the couple who just tried for you know one or two months and boom got pregnant are the many couples who are like oh my gosh I didn’t even know I was pregnant until I was you know whatever 12 weeks along. You know I know a mom struggling with fertility that makes her cringe inside. Right. And so what what makes it so unique is the emotional toll it is such a lonely lonely process to be going through vaginally or waiting for adoption. You know that international adoptions are long and costly and so you can send your job very long certainly. Right. Exactly. I just think of all of these moms though that you know maybe they’ve identified in a 9 month old in China or in Africa somewhere and they have to wait until their two two and a half year old take them home. And you’re worried about them you think about them you know make these costly trips to visit them. So I think infertility and adoption just start off motherhood in a really different place.

 

[00:56:02] But my unique angle on it from what I have seen and even personally experienced is you know you start off unique maybe not like the average mom. It’s not an average situation. However I think that after the first year you very quickly go into the mode of like every other month. Now you do join the ranks of typical mom feelings experiences. And what happens uniquely for them and I’ll say for myself as well is you’ve got this feeling this nagging thought I’m not allowed to complain. I tried you know three rounds of IVF. We spent fifty thousand dollars on doctors Battah. We waited three years for that. How could I possibly call a friend or my mom or my mother in law and say I have had it. I’m so exhausted. You don’t feel like you can do that. So now the process becomes lonelier because you don’t even have an outlet at least moms they do. Today’s Moms definitely complain a lot to each other and they tell each other you know you know those kinds of things it wouldn’t be unusual on the morning of drop off to be like. We had quite the morning you know and sometimes a two minute exchange. It just is validating like someone else goes oh yeah we had one of those the other day and it did it did. And then you go on with your day. It’s good to talk about it. So I I wanted to be true to my motherhood experience because I have three children and my first two I really struggled with and the toll that it took on me is feeling like a failure. The toll that it took.

 

[00:57:38] I mean I really would say things like I am a woman like I am here to reproduce children that I’m dying to have. And I couldn’t have it you know and then the toll it took on my marriage. You know at times we were connected at times I was like oh you have no idea what I’m going through at times what it would be yet another month of not getting pregnant and my husband kind of going Oh man. Well there’s always next month and just wanting to be like I want to represent. Because for me it wasn’t just man. Let’s try again next month it was heartbreaking. And so I just have experienced it myself treated it myself so much myself. It’s kind of in a way similar to postpartum depression. You know and we’re much more and again what postpartum depression women. You know you’ve got this beautiful it’s a three month old. Well who thinks that they can just say to whoever came to visit them. Actually I’m really unhappy and I don’t want to hope. Maybe you will maybe I want to stay in bed. I don’t want to go to a mommy and me. I don’t want you know so there is. And that’s shame. Right at the root of all those examples are the shame and that’s really part of my mission is to have places and communities. We didn’t talk about that. But not just friendships and also communities that we feel we belong to in which we can really have an authentic experience share about motherhood.

 

[00:59:04] And also before before you go I want to also talk about another aspect of our speaking of community of our community is parents who have adopted children who have experienced trauma who have adopted adopted older kids who have adopted kids with special needs. You talk about loneliness. There is a special loneliness when your kid doesn’t fit any mold and that type of parent thing you feel like you need to do for this child is a different type of parenting that’s often not understood. Can you talk a little about about that. I mean talk about burnout that’s made that of course they’re burned out there. Xome it’s parenting a child has experience trauma. His is an exhausting thing to do. Absolutely and this is where in terms of where my experience most heavily lies it’s right here working with traumatized kids and then working with their families and training their families and doing all those kinds of things. And what I will say is there’s nothing like a wonderful family or couple wanting to help another human being out right and doing so and wanting to grow their family and really bring them in and then having that child not securely attach continue to school tell you every day how much they hate you you know glorifying maybe a in a biological parent who may have been abusive or is incarcerated or those kinds of things or glorifying a biological parent who they’ve never even met. So there is nothing nothing that I can imagine that requires that level of resilience.

 

[01:00:50] And that’s what I see there’s a level of resilience that special needs parents but specifically special needs parents of adopted and foster care adopt kind of situations that yes community is is the key because the notion that generally no one understands it’s not just like a saying or an exaggeration it’s truth. If people think well you know the Smiths are such a lovely family how fortunate that little Johnny was adopted by them and joining their family and then they realize that love is not enough in these situations. You cannot love a child. Now love plays a role. But I feel pretty strongly about this you know you can’t just love a child out of the trauma and the rejection and sort of sometimes the atrocities that they’ve been through. It requires so much. And so that’s just what I would say about that like making sure that those families are part of regular not just sometimes but regular ongoing community get togethers groups parent meetings. You know one thing I will say about technology I don’t it’s not all negative. I will say that some of this is some of the Special Needs kinds of groups any kind any whatever it’s going to be that are online that are big and then are strong that are really supportive and moderated well which sounds like your community you know and there’s sort of ground rules that people understand and if you break them you’re out there. Those can be a lifeline because a lot of the camp situations that moms have with kids with special needs have occur late at night. You know at times where even if you had somebody to call you can’t and there’s just nothing like being able to go on to you know a Facebook group that’s private and just say I just had a hell of a night and have you know 75 100 people support you.

 

[01:02:41] There’s really valuable. Yeah I so agree with you on that. I agree. I was sitting here inwardly smiling thinking Well the problem is one of the best ways of finding this community is online and we had already talked about how that isn’t necessarily but a place where you can read about what your experience is for people who have been there and will understand and won’t judge because oftentimes we’re not at our best at these moments either. So having people reach out and giving you practical suggestions and sometimes just supporting and just saying man that you know that must’ve been a hard experience I know it’s hard. I’ve had a similar experience. And boy it’s hard. And yes so I. Yes. And they’re creating a family does have one. It’s a closed Facebook group and you can find it by typing in the words creating a family in the search book and the Facebook search box. And let me just say one more thing about that so that if you are someone listening from start to finish. Oh can I say this. OK. You know if someone heard heard us talking about sort of social media from the beginning about friendships to hear I actually see them as two different things. Because what I was saying about friendships is sort of a one on one intimate connection in which you know you share your highs and lows and and everything in between. However belonging to community is different.

 

[01:04:10] You could walk into let’s say a church or synagogue and sit in the back and never talk to anybody and still have a sense that you belong in that community. You can still get online late at night. You’re probably never going to meet any of these people in a huge Facebook group and just say I had a hell of a day. Dot dot dot. And all of a sudden you know you’ve got a place to go. Or my doctor just told me that my child was diagnosed with reactive attachment disorder. Anybody else. Anybody know anything about this. And you know that you’re going to get dozens of responses back. There is not. There’s a difference and that that does serve a purpose and belonging that duty now do. Do I of course advocate for face to face. Yes. But there is a definite role and a gift I think in the online community that I don’t want downplayed. And then there’s also a need for us to have one on one person person to person face or on the phone interaction. So I just wanted to make that distinguishment thank you. Thank you. That is important because I totally agree with you and not just because I run a really large group but I we need both in one way and it be great if you had this type of community in person. But that’s hard to find because they know unless you live in a really large and then it’s not. The meetings are are few and far between and what you need is that night when you’ve had a really tough night to be able to share.

 

[01:05:37] Before I let you go I wanted to say that there were two times in the in reading the book and again the book is mommy out how to reclaim your life and raise healthier children in the process. And the author is Dr. Cheryl Ziegler a psychotherapist as well. And there were two times I gave you a standing ovation when I’m going to tell you now what they are. One was you have a I wish I could tell you the pain. I don’t remember. You had somewhere in the book that we needed. We need to ban busy as a badge of honor. And I honestly stood up and went Yes and I would say that as somebody who I think fell prey to that certainly as an I had such an epiphany once I was sitting with a group of women all moms and we were everybody was complaining about how busy we were how busy we were. And at the time I was astronomically busy I had taken on way too much and was just really just and I and I was timing right and all of a sudden I had this thought I went stop bragging. We’re all bragging that this is something to be proud of. And then I looked around and I thought OK Don you’ve won. OK. The business wore you won does that make you feel. And I’m saying this all to myself. And I made a vow right then that I would never complain I would not. I was going to stop I was not going to participate in the busy competition. Now I’m not sure I actually kept that promise. But I I certainly try.

 

[01:07:09] So that was one time I gave you this massive standing ovation and then another thing you talk about in the book and you talk about it throughout although there’s a chapter when you really talk about it and it was focusing time and energy on your marriage and I. As someone who has been married a long time and whose children are now leaving I have left. I can’t stress enough how much I agree with you that that that the relationship that’s going to the ongoing relationship is one and the of your marriage and the second. Of course your relationship with your kids exists but it is just so important and marriages need time and energy. So I’ll give you a chance. Now this big since I’ve just had a monologue on my two standing ovation moments. But I’ll let you. I mean you can go on and on. You’re giving me a standing ovation. That’s fantastic and I really truly I truly appreciate that. You know what. You never know what is going to resonate with people. And I’d love to hear that. So that’s the first one you definitely hit the nail on the head. You know you see a mom and you’re like Hey how’s it going. Oh my gosh it’s going. I’m super busy. And the other one goes oh ya need to raise the busy and so instantly we just set up a barrier right there in that moment. And I talk about this. I did a TED talk called Why moms are miserable in November and that is what I talk about where you have these moments where you think that you’ve just worn your badge of honor because if I tell you that I’m busy then I’m important right.

 

[01:08:50] I’ve got because I’m not busy. What does that say about me. Oh my gosh I’ve got nothing going on in my life. Exactly. I’m a lawyer. Right. I’m a real slacker so I’ve got to say I’m busy because that’s the thing to do is to say you’re busy. So I really pushed that and not really weeds into the message around friendship. You want to create just even relationships and connections. You got to stop saying you’re busy because people want Codie you they won’t goading you they won’t ask you for favors. They won’t even ask you for a glass of wine because every time they see you you look frazzled and you say that you’re busy and probably those are the moms that more than anybody could really use a night out and could really use a connection. We could all use it. So that’s that one piece. And in a marital piece shirt an entire chapter on the marriage of course because burnout and let me tell you how much I have heard from the men and the dads. Where’s the daddy burnout. We’ve got a lot of ideas asking that question what’s it that he’s learned from mommy burnout. So yes. So you know the dad have what that can learn from mommy burnout. Shirley and I had actually been pleasantly surprised that there have been many men who read the book themselves and said I learned so much about my wife and we had such great conversations because I just asked her Is this how you feel. Is this what’s going on in your life you know and it’s open to great conversation.

 

[01:10:17] So that’s what dads can and there’s so many stress management tool that anybody could use. That’s what dads could learn from it. But the dads that are like apprising to me are just sort of like I want you to acknowledge that we also feel burnout and that we are very much can be the victim of burnout in our lives. And so I say to them that is true. I mean we talk I talk in the book about you know men feel oftentimes like they pretty quickly. Oh this is the way it is baby comes first. I’m a far second. Sometimes my wife doesn’t even look at me when I walk in the door. She doesn’t ask me about my day anymore. However they’re starting to accept that this is I guess this is what being a mommy. You know you’ve got your kids around and so far snuck in. And so either they become pretty unhappy in their marriages and they kind of go along with that. Or the other thing that happens is they’re so craving and dying for attention physical affection and all that that they notice that their wives are totally ignoring them. When you’re a burnout you don’t feel very sexy and you don’t want to be touched and you don’t want to do any of that kind of stuff. So the stories that I have in that chapter you know ones about how women dodge their husbands. But the flip side of that is that men know it.

 

[01:11:42] You know they know that you’re doing it and you know sometimes they hang in there for sometimes they don’t and sometimes there’s big fights it just depends on the personality but it’s a real problem. And again it goes to the spirit of the book. The book is first and foremost what’s different about this book is that it’s very very adult women focused. Right. But if you do those things the consequences are that you are a better parent your kids are healthier and happier and your relationship is stronger. And that’s where the spirit for me is is I really want to emphasize the point. We come first and everything around us gets better our work gets better. Our husbands and our relationships get better. Our kids do better if we can put ourselves first and take care of our needs first and not lose ourselves in parenting. So that’s what I would say. Well thank you so much Dr. Cheryl Ziegler for talking with us today. Again the title of the book is mommy burn out how to reclaim your life and raise healthier children in the process. You can get the book of course on Amazon. You can also go to your local bookseller. We want to encourage you to do that and if they don’t have it and they probably do but if they don’t have it asking them to get it for you. Because other people will want it to. Or you can go to her website. Mommy out dot com and you can buy the book at that point as well. I highly highly recommend the book. It is both practical as well as it’s it’s it’s not humorous so much but it’s a good read. From a from a from an older mom or a mom of older kids.

 

[01:13:30] I can tell you it rings so true. Let me break for a moment and remind you that this show could not happen and would not happen without the generous support of our partners. One of our partners is this the Del Mar they are a licensed and accredited non-profit adoption agency with over 65 years of experience helping to create families. They have three adoption programs a private infant program an international program and adoption through foster care program. So you can check them out by going to our website and under our Sparre partners. You will see them and we appreciate. We truly do appreciate their support. Thank you for being with us today. And I will see you all next week.

• How is parenting in this decade of 21st century different from parenting 20-30 years ago?
• What can daddies learn from mommy burnout?
• Impact of social media.
• Impact of infertility on mommy burnout.
• Unrealistic visions of motherhood.
• Impact of older motherhood on becoming burned out from parenting.
• Guilt at not doing enough and there always seems like more than you should be doing.
• Co-sleeping.
• Importance of friends. Moms have fewer close and intimate friendships than in the past. Why?
• Avoiding friendships with other moms because you don’t have much in common.
• Stay at home moms vs. working moms.
• “My only job is these kids”
• Child-centered family vs. parent-centered family.
• Impact of adopting older kids or children who have experienced trauma. Parenting a child with special needs.
• Perfectionism: wanting the best products, the best gymnastics program, the best kindergarten.
• Becoming overwhelmed with all the options available: the proliferation of choice. FOMO
• Importance of limiting choices for each child to preserve me time and family time.
• Ban busy as a badge of honor.
• Focusing time and energy on your marriage.

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